This episode like many is because so often things online (and offline) are setup to be harder than they should. When solving problems there are often are many ways but very often the solution causes more problems than it fixes.

  • People cant find something on a web site? Create a mega menu.
  • Lots of Categories? Show none in the menu.
  • Have a big menu? Dont include the search functionality.
  • Move from sit down to take out only restaurant. Fail to plan for lines.
  • Build a beautiful and clean website. People can’t find contact or menu options.
  • Users are young or old. Design your product for a different group.

We talk about some of these in the episode and many others.

Test Your Own Stuff

If you get nothing else from this episode, we hope you think through your online and offline processes. Have friends, family or hire someone to go through and do things on your website. Ask customers what they expect from your offline store now and in the future.

As Dave spent a ton of time (and likely many other parents have in recent weeks) trying to figure out a number of e-learning solutions. If he and others that are tech savvy are unable to figure out how your UI works, how is a small child? Is someone can’t easily navigate your site or product do you think they will invest time or just leave?

Resources and Links

Photo credits to Travis Belton visit for larger version.

Full Transcript

Matt Siltala: [00:00:00] Welcome to another exciting episode of the business of digital podcast, featuring your host, Matt  and Dave roar. Hey guys, excited to be with you on a, another business of digital podcast episode. Um, how’s it going, Dave?

Dave Rohrer: [00:00:18] It is going, sir. It is going, going.

Matt Siltala: [00:00:20] We are all surviving everything that’s going on around us in the world, so hopefully everyone’s doing well.

Um, because of stuff that’s going on in the world, it’s kind of given us a good idea for a well. I mean, it’s not just the stuff that’s going on around the world. It’s kind of a good idea to be practicing like some of the stuff that we’re going to be talking about, like common sense all the time. But a, why UX and UI matter, Dave?

That’s what, uh,

Dave Rohrer: [00:00:47] I still confused the two. I don’t know why. I just always confuse them. That will include from WordStream that breaks them apart. And I’m like, yeah, they’re the same to [00:01:00] me. I know someone  I’m like, yeah, nice. Yeah.

Matt Siltala: [00:01:04] Well, it comes from , and in the simplest form, you know, we use some of these, and I’ll just share this example, um, to kind of kick things off and you can share some of the ones that you did, but, um, even something as simple as like, if you’re on social media and, and in this, uh.

Covert 19 thing that we’re dealing with and, and restaurants and places, trying to stay in business and doing everything that they can to stay afloat and keep people safe. Um, when you post on social media, something about having contactless, um, service or whatever it might be, but you post a picture of handing a bag to someone and there’s contact being made.

You failed at what you’ve been trying to do. And again, I know that you’re doing your best. Um, but that, that’s the kind of stuff that we want you to think about. If there’s con, and I’ve seen people do it right. You know, they have pictures [00:02:00] of the door with the bag down your driver, eight feet back,

Dave Rohrer: [00:02:05] stock photography.

Well, you talked about that before. Don’t use it.

Matt Siltala: [00:02:11] Don’t exactly. Well, I mean, you know my take on that already, but yeah, so the point is, you know, you’re going to get these, um. These just like, think about that kind of stuff, like, you know, um, don’t anyway. It’s just, it, it, it makes me laugh. And I know that you have several other examples, uh, of stuff that you can talk about, Dave, but that’s just one that I wanted to use to kick off because it’s like, this is very important right now in this day and age.

And that’s what people, that’s what worries people. They’re worried about getting this, uh, virus and, and uh, you’ve got gotta do everything that you can. To make people feel safe and come and keep visiting you. And that is not how you do it. So

Dave Rohrer: [00:02:53] well, I can give you two examples along those lines. One good one, one, one bad, one from locations here in Chicago, [00:03:00] um, of color.

Um, I think it was at the, um, of color brewery. I think it was at the mouse trap. The third room, they posted a series of pictures on an Instagram and it was ordering online. We do delivery, but if you’re coming in to pick it up, here’s how it works. And they showed a picture of the front and then they showed a picture of like the tables, like where you walk in, and then they showed a table of where you would pick up the beer and stuff, and like they documented easily how they’re going to do their contact list pickup.

And then they described it in the Facebook post and Instagram or whatever it was like what the steps are and what to do. Like we’re not taking cash. You have to order online if you haven’t ordered already. Too bad, none. Other side of that. I saw someone post a picture of them trying to pick up food from a restaurant, stated that they waited an extra 45 minutes to get their food.

Because it was supposed to be contactless. It was completely disorganized

[00:04:00] Matt Siltala: [00:04:00] and we posted like the group of people all by each other and yeah, distancing. Yeah,

Dave Rohrer: [00:04:04] yeah. Oh no. There was just like, it was, he, he took a picture and it was just like 12 people all kind of almost huddled around, um, trying to get their food.

Like no line, no queue, no organ, like no organization. And I think that’s what we’re kind of talking about. It. You know, do you think these things through? Are you, we’re not even talking about, are you communicating them? Um, that’s a different, it’s a totally different thing. Um, but this idea, um, of why UX and UI matter stemmed from me spending.

Much of a day recently trying to understand how the hell to use all these different systems that my son has for e-learning.

Matt Siltala: [00:04:55] Oh yeah. You become a

Dave Rohrer: [00:04:55] teacher all of a sudden. Well, yeah. Suddenly, I’m not only a teacher, but I’m like, [00:05:00] I’m a teacher. I’m an educator slash project manager. Slash daycare. Slash you know, babysitter’s parent.

Um, while I’m trying to get work done. But now I’m also trying to figure out like Google classroom and like all these different systems, and I know the teachers and everyone is as well. And over the last couple of days, things have gotten, I think they’ve gotten better, but there’s still things about the system that make absolutely no sense.

Like my son and I, and even me, I could not figure out how you’re supposed to click this microphone so that he could read this one online book. Okay. No problem. Big microphone on the bottom. The instructions at the top say, click this, but it’s 12 pages long. There’s no way to move the pages on that thing because once you click the microphone, everything else goes gray ish, and you can kind of see what’s on [00:06:00] that screen, but you can’t click anything else.

I’m like, so if there’s 12 pages, how was he supposed to read the book?

Matt Siltala: [00:06:07] Right?

Dave Rohrer: [00:06:08] So the first day I just tell the teacher I was like. I clicked her on everything. I don’t know. We’ll figure it out tomorrow like I was. I’m done. The next day, another project just like that. I’m like, all right, how can we do this?

I’m like, all right, here’s what we’re going to do. We’re going to open another instance of this story in a different browser tab. Go to it so he can click to change the screen. You know, share it, split the screen with the two of them. Have him on one screen record and use the other one to page through.

I’m like, this is not how this should work.

Matt Siltala: [00:06:49] Well,

Dave Rohrer: [00:06:50] like has anyone, and this is really the ultimate question, has anyone that works there tried to do this? No. It’s like,

Matt Siltala: [00:06:59] well, [00:07:00] here, here’s, here’s something that I thought about David. We probably just deal with it so much that it’s second nature to us. But since we’ve been going through this, we’ve probably been looking at online menus a little bit more, and tell me if I’m wrong, but how often have we been like yelling at restaurant owners to like get their menus right?

And again, I know that we’ve just been, you know, we’ve, we’ve gotten used to it, but it kind of reminded me of how horrible that is sometimes. You know, especially when I have Holly like looking through something and she’s like, Oh, it’s so frustrating. Just I want to see your menu. And we ended up a lot of cases just go onto Yelp or Google and just looking at the pictures that people are posting because the menus are so horrible and that a user interfaces is no bueno.

And, uh, it’s no good. So, uh, I don’t know if like, is that what you do? But you know what I mean? Like that’s [00:08:00] something that like, we usually just learn to deal with it just because we’ve talked about stuff like that. But you know what I mean? Like it’s something now that it’s important, it could kill a business.

And so like you heard it from here first guys, Dave, he’s just not going to order from you. And there’s a lot of people that are like that. You’re just not gonna order from me.

Dave Rohrer: [00:08:16] They’re local businesses where I can actually get to their menu. I’m going to order from there.

Matt Siltala: [00:08:21] There you go. Exactly. So

Dave Rohrer: [00:08:23] there, here’s another example.

Um, and in someone, I don’t even know where it came from, but they posted it. Someone posted it on Facebook and it was a great example. Um, it was down in Publix, um, bless their soul and their awesome subs, but they completely failed. And you said you’ve seen examples like this. It’s a bear shelf with, for baby wipes, which makes sense cause you can clean stuff.

Um, there’s a sign they circled says limit two per customer. Right above it. On the other line it says, buy two, get one free.

Well, wait, what if I buy two? I don’t get one free. Yeah, [00:09:00] because you just put a sign that says limit. So whoever put that sign up, you know, and they put like, and then right below it it says, because of increased demand, we’re limiting to two, but no one thought to take down the sign that’s going to piss off everyone that walks up that says, well.

Well, I can’t get my fruit when I can just take it off. Even if it’s still going on. Just take that off.

Matt Siltala: [00:09:23] Well, that’s the same one that I saw except it was bread. It basically said limit to four, but you buy for your fifth one free. And so it’s like,

Dave Rohrer: [00:09:31] just take that sign off.

Matt Siltala: [00:09:32] Do you not really get that? And, and you don’t want to be that person that’s shamed in the front of your hoarding.

You’ve got too many.

Dave Rohrer: [00:09:40] Well, no, but that’s the sale.

Matt Siltala: [00:09:41] Yeah, exactly.

Dave Rohrer: [00:09:43] No matter what you look, man.

Matt Siltala: [00:09:44] Yeah. Oh man. Yeah. That’s funny.

Dave Rohrer: [00:09:48] Yeah. I just think use law common sense, but it’s not so common as we all know. Um,

Matt Siltala: [00:09:54] Oh man. And we have, if we have learned anything about during this pandemic

[00:10:00] Dave Rohrer: [00:09:59] that,

Matt Siltala: [00:10:01] yeah,

Dave Rohrer: [00:10:04] I think we know, just like ask questions, have your, have your people like be not afraid, but also like.

Use your own product.

Matt Siltala: [00:10:14] Well, and, and I liked, I liked that you suggested that day because you know, this, uh, this restaurant group that I’ve been working with through this whole thing and trying to help them, that’s exactly what she’s done. Like before something happens, you know, she’ll reach out to me and she’ll be like, Hey, do you think it would scare people if we wore these masks or.

You know, the, my husband, who’s the chef that’s not in front of people, he thinks that it’s going to scare people. Okay, well he clearly is not on social media. He clearly doesn’t know what’s been going on and absolutely, yes, you should wear them. They’re going to make people, you know, they’re gonna make people feel safer.

And so it’s just stuff like that though. Like that was a good example of that’s what people should be doing. They should be talking to us. They should be reaching out. They should [00:11:00] be helping get that feedback. Cause that. That gives you that better experience and that’s what this whole, that’s what this whole purpose is about, right?

That’s what this podcast is about, right, Dan? Well,

Dave Rohrer: [00:11:10] I like for the e-learning. For me, it’s just more of have they ever done like UI testing with like children where parents said, okay, here, how old can a kid be that they can one read and understand the directions and do it? Like is it that intuitive? No.

Like, I couldn’t figure out how to do it. 

Matt Siltala: [00:11:35] Gardner’s not going to figure out how to do it. Then

Dave Rohrer: [00:11:37] I’m like, if I can find all sorts of stuff in Google and you know, write code and do like all this stuff and I have no flipping idea how to do the most basic thing in your little system. How was the five-year-old or a six or seven or three year old going to do it

Matt Siltala: [00:11:57] like.

Dave Rohrer: [00:11:59] In [00:12:00] the, in, in, yeah. There’s other problems with it too. But like, if you’re not using it and you’re not, like, if you’re a marketing team, you know, and you have a SAS product or, you know, um, go through it or you’re a product team, like sit down with your product team and have them walk you through it. Set up a business, you know, set up a free trial in your own, your own solution.

Or ask someone to make it so that you can set up your own one and set up your own business. What does that onboarding process look like? How is the UI? Is there, you know, ask customer service, ask sales, what is the feedback they get about once people use the product or once they’re on the website? Um, we’ve talked about it before about like, not user testing, but like ask, ask five people like it.

There’s a lot of people that are looking for work right now. User or if you know any friends that you know are in the [00:13:00] service industry, say, Hey, do you want to make 50 bucks today? I just need you to fill up to do these 10 tasks on the website, on our website, and you know, here’s loom, here’s this system.

Record your screen so I can see it. And. Let me see how you answer these questions or how you use our site or how you use our product. Could God, there’s going to be gold in there.

Matt Siltala: [00:13:27] There is for rentals

Dave Rohrer: [00:13:28] and watch. How many times do you hear them going? Where the bleep is this? And when all of a sudden people basically say, where the bleep is this?

Or how the bleep do I do this? You know, and these are 10 people. And you’re like, okay, well then now. I think about how many hundreds or thousands of people that use your website, how many of them run into that problem?

Matt Siltala: [00:13:49] Well, you and you can pay attention to stuff too. Like for example, you know, we were paying attention to, there was a lot of people that kept asking, where’s the menu?

Even though we clearly have a menu on the [00:14:00] website, it wasn’t clear enough because you know, we were paid attention to some, one of the most commonly asked question, where’s the menu on the site? So again, it’s just one of those deals where, okay, well let’s test it. Let’s change it. Let’s put it here where it’s more predominant, where it’s easier for people to see this big old button right now it seems to be the thing that they’re most important or most, you know, concerned about.

And then guess what stopped. Okay, we fixed that problem, we fixed that little user interface or whatever, and the questions and problems have stopped. It can be that simple, Dave.

Dave Rohrer: [00:14:34] It should be, it could be.

Matt Siltala: [00:14:37] Supposed to be right.

Dave Rohrer: [00:14:38] It’s supposed to be, yeah. The, I’m Roger Dooley who actually has a podcast and he did a, a post the other day and you talked about, um, friction.

I mean, he’s got a book about friction. You should check it out. Um, and I still want to have on the show sometime to talk about it. Maybe we can dig really deep into this topic,

Matt Siltala: [00:14:59] but that’d be [00:15:00] fun.

Dave Rohrer: [00:15:01] It’s, he talks about how he was trying to get his book. Um, downloaded it for someone on, on, on the nook versus Amazon and just the, the, the experience he had with Barnes and noble and how they created all this friction.

Like is your user experience of your website or of your product creating friction for your customer, for your prospect that you don’t know about? And is that why nine out of 10, that sign up never stay with you? Like, yeah. If you have a free trial and most people never come back, why is that your onboarding process?

Is it the UI? Is it because I never can get it set up? Like again, it goes back to the whole, have you tried to use your own product? And I think some of us are too close to our own website and you’re like, Oh, well yeah, like if someone asks you where it is and you’re like, Oh, you go to this one, you click on that and you click on that and then you’re there.

You know where it’s at and you explain it. But did you just hear [00:16:00] yourself talk. Well, if we get to a very important, clearly page to someone, it took four clicks.

Matt Siltala: [00:16:05] You don’t want that

Dave Rohrer: [00:16:06] ever, but you know where it’s at, so you don’t even think about it. You’re like, Oh, well it makes sense because it’s in this folder, because that’s the way the WordPress thing works.

And that’s, you know,

Matt Siltala: [00:16:16] well, you just hit the nail on the head with, just because it makes sense to you doesn’t mean it makes sense to 90% of the people that are using your site. And that’s the problem. And that’s the main thing here. That’s the point.

Dave Rohrer: [00:16:26] And, and I think sometimes us testing our own product isn’t the right way.

I think we should do it, but I think having someone that isn’t too close to it also might sometimes be the real,

Matt Siltala: [00:16:38] well, that’s why I’ve always like, Hey Holly, what’d you look at this? And just tell me what you think. Or even one of the kiddos, you know, the 17 year old, I like lots of different feedback and it will be brutally honest.

Dave Rohrer: [00:16:51] No, not chairs, Ivy. And she would, she would not tell you exactly.

Matt Siltala: [00:16:57] Oh, she would.

Dave Rohrer: [00:16:58] I know she would.

Matt Siltala: [00:16:59] What do you [00:17:00] think of this piece that we want to go viral? That’s dumb. Boomers will like it.

Dave Rohrer: [00:17:06] Like, well, that’s our target so perfectly.

Matt Siltala: [00:17:08] Yes. Thank you. Validation. Yeah, exactly. Any final thoughts on a new UX and UI?


Dave Rohrer: [00:17:16] Um, e-learning companies, please get your stuff together cause dear Lord, it’s horrible. Um, yeah, I think look for friction points. Force yourself to look for friction points in your onboarding, in your product, in your website, in your store. Um, you know, right now, like I, Matt talked about it. If you have never been delivery, like what are your processes look like.

Do you have any? Are you, are you communicating them? But

Matt Siltala: [00:17:48] yeah. Does your team know?

Dave Rohrer: [00:17:51] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Corporate. We talked about it. It’s a great idea. Have we implemented it? No. Yeah. So yeah, I think just go [00:18:00] through and really test your own things, test your own processes and look at that kind of stuff. And

Don’t just think, Oh well, cause that’s all, that’s how that works. That’s how it has to be done. Because if people can’t find it, and if you do it like again, dues, user testing or some sort of, you know, a couple people in your family go, Hey, are you guys bored? Hey, are you rich? Hey, you know, any of your retired family go, Hey, you’re sitting at the computer today.

Here. Can you guys go and try to find this product on this site? Try to find this thing. Create a figure out a page that doesn’t exist. And have them or a product that doesn’t exist and try to find it and see what they do. Yeah, I know I’m evil, but you know, say, Hey, just spend 10 minutes, let me know if you find this product or, and how you do it, and go to this loom or go to this thing and watch them flail.

Perfect. Do they start, do they go and search for it? So I’d be curious.

Matt Siltala: [00:18:58] Very good. [00:19:00] All right. Well thanks guys for joining us. Just want to give everybody a reminder. We are on iTunes, Spotify, Google, play, YouTube, um, PocketCasts, overcast player FM. We are pretty much everywhere that you can think of. And so

Dave Rohrer: [00:19:15] pick one of the doors.

Matt Siltala: [00:19:17] Yeah, more much more than that. But pick one of those big ones and give us a five star review if you feel that we have provided you with value. So thanks guys. We appreciate you listening as always. Uh, Dave Roth, Northside metrics. I met Soto with avalanche media and uh, we look forward to having you guys on another one of these podcasts.

Thanks all.

Dave Rohrer: [00:19:36] Thanks. All.

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